[clip of Tangerine plays]

Merry Christmas Eve, bitch.

SEAN Hey, we definitely set out to make a Christmas movie at some point. Chris Bergoch, my co-screenwriter was the one who came up with the idea, I think very inspired by LA Christmas stories like Tangerine and the fact that many of the trans youth at risk here in LA who were finding themselves in that area, unfortunately did not have a family connection because they were, many of them were rejected by their family. And so this became something that I think that their family became their friends, their family became their group. And so, I think we wanted to play upon that theme and show that family doesn’t always have to be blood. And sometimes if it is blood, it can be more toxic than your friends who are family. So we were showing the Armenian family who was a family by blood having a lot of issues on Christmas Day, while the sisterhood, which I also see as family, they ed themselves and they were there for them. Even through their hardships, they were there for each other.

GEMMA You even see them attempting to enact a perfect American Christmas and failing at it. I was thinking, who would Mikey Saber spend Christmas with? Where even is his family? Because the family comes back to in Texas—

SLIM Is an ex-victim.

GEMMA Is his estranged wife and her mom, who are amazing by the way

SEAN Yes, oh yeah. But Bree Elrod and Brenda Deiss. Yes, amazing. I don’t know. He would be watching some television. I have no idea.

SLIM Watching NCIS on reruns. [Slim laughs] So Red Rocket is now—I just checked, we had a 3.9 average on Letterboxd, now it is officially a 4.0, Gemma, as of today on Letterboxd.

GEMMA That is huge.

SEAN Wow. Well, I want to thank all Letterboxd s who positively rated my film. Thank you. That’s so nice.

SLIM So finding himself down and out in Los Angeles, ex-porn star Mikey Saber decides to crawl back to his hometown of Texas City, Texas, where his estranged wife and mother in law are living. And then chaos ensues. And so we were lucky enough to watch this, this past week. I loved it. I love Simon.

SEAN Oh, thank you.

SLIM And I mean, I was comparing the one scene, the scene later in the movie with Simon, where you kind of get a vibe that you’re witnessing something special happening. Not gonna say what scene that is. But it reminded me of—I’ll edit this out.

[music from Red Rocket plays over Slim speaking]

SLIM And the music is playing. Unbelievable scene. It reminded me of, for any On Cinema fans, when Gregg Turkington would have his Oscar pick. And you get like the logo under his face of like, “This is my Oscar pick.” Do you have that moment when you’re filming that scene, you kind of know what’s going to happen in advance. But at the end of those scenes, are you and Simon just kind of high fiving each other like, “Man, that was great, right? This looks amazing. This is gonna be a really cool moment in the movie.”

SEAN We were so relieved just to pull that off that I think that we were just more in that state, that state of just being like, ‘Oh my god, I can’t believe we actually did that without getting arrested.’ [Slim & Gemma laugh] We didn’t have permits. We tried. We actually did try. But during Covid and, you know, this was just a crazy time. We never really actually got a response. So we went ahead and started shooting and that night that we were shooting that scene, the police came out nowhere—

SLIM Oh my god.

SEAN The whole night lit up.

GEMMA It was The Sugarland Express. [Gemma & Slim laugh]

SEAN Red and blue lit up the sky and I jumped out, I had my hands up and I just said, “Officers, we’re that independent film crew. We did approach the department about shooting. Were those guys.” And they looked at us and they said, “Oh, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, no problem, do whatever you want.” [Gemma laughs] And they waved us off. And they drove off into the night. And we realized at that moment that what they’re concerned about is terrorism. The potential terrorism around the refinery, and we’re literally meaningless in their eyes. We look like a student film crew because there was only seven of us or whatever. So we’re pretty much harmless in their eyes.

SLIM I love the idea of Simon holding his hands up in the air while you’re filming that scene. And he’s just sitting there.

SEAN Oh, no, no, he was in the backseat of one of the cars pulling his pants up going, “I can’t be arrested for this little movie! You’re not paying me enough!” [Slim & Gemma laughs]

GEMMA So we need to read a review, back to you, that you wrote on November 18 2018 on Letterboxd, back when you were still writing reviews.

SEAN Yes.

GEMMA Before you just reverted to using Letterboxd as a diary. And I can totally understand why someone with your profile would do that. But thankfully, we still have preserved for, you know, forever. You writing about Bodied: “Simon Rex has an extremely amusing cameo. Love him. I’d like to see him tackle a dramatic role.” Speaking of Simon Rex’s tackle.

SEAN I know and I forgotten I had written that and somebody on Twitter took a screenshot and posted it and tagged me in and then it all came back, I’m like, ‘Oh, yeah, I did write that, didn’t I?’

GEMMA So you obviously knew about him from his MTV days.

SEAN Oh yeah, we’re about the same age and I’ve been following his whole career. But it was around that time. Bodied and his presence on social media that made me say, he has to be given a role, whether it’s gonna be me or somebody else, I don’t know. But it has to happen.

GEMMA And it’s happened and he is working that award season circuit and it’s so exciting to watch. But I’m fascinated by the reaction, I’ll speak specifically for Letterboxd. So we just published an interview with him, brilliant interview. But he talks about needing to build likability for Mikey Saber so that you go on this journey with him whether you like them or not. And we’d sort of use the words ‘rooting for the bad guy’. And then, I mean, okay, so first of all I need to say that there is no nuance on Twitter. So, you know. But then we got all these replies going “Oh, rooting for the bad guy, no thanks. I’m not gonna watch this movie.” And I’m like, but you’re watching Succession, you’re watching The Sopranos, you’re watching The Godfather. I mean, give me a break. But I’m really fascinated by just what kind of person Mikey Saber is and why you wanted to foreground such a character, who we all know one of these people.

SEAN I’ve been interested in exploring the moral gray since my first film. And an antihero is part of that. And I don’t see any problem with doing a character study of an antihero. We used to do it all the time. And usually up on my top four favorite films on Letterboxd is Buffalo ’66. And I think I had Five Easy Pieces on there one time. I mean, these are films that spoke to me because these characters are very complex, and they’re flawed. And you can actually, and maybe people don’t want to it this, but sometimes you can see yourselves in flawed characters. And I think that they ultimately teach you more. Whether that’s, again, self reflection, or just perhaps seeing the world in a different way. But I don’t know why we’re shying away from it these days. I think it’s perhaps because people can be vocally outraged now because of Twitter and other social media platforms. And then people are sensitive to those people who are outraged. And it becomes a cyclical thing where it just becomes something in which I think the industry and filmmakers then become cautious of tackling these sorts of subjects. And that’s where we are now. We’re not seeing this anymore. So I knew it would be risky. And I knew that, yes, tackling an antihero in a film, making him the lead and asking us to spend two hours with somebody who you might find reprehensible is asking a lot. But these are films that I grew up on, films that I appreciate and films I would like to see more of.

SLIM I thought the same thing when I was watching it. Now that you say that, Gemma, I think there is maybe an aversion to that introspection, because you can see, in this movie—I mean, have you ever gotten away with anything and then not gotten your comeuppance? Like, you start to build a certain arrogance, and ‘Am I smarter than everyone?’ And his character is someone that never really figured out that that was gonna bite him in the ass. So I think a lot of people are probably like that and I think you’re right, maybe is afraid of that kind of introspection a little bit.

GEMMA I was gonna say, my favorite shots in the film—as much as I love the way that Mikey just does not shut up. And it’s kind of terrorism by talking and maybe the cops were right to arrest you guys with terrorism. But it’s just terrorism through conversation. But it’s just the shots of Mikey just sitting and thinking, coming up with his next scheme, the calm before the chaos. Those are my favourite moments, because you just know.

SEAN Oh, thank you.

GEMMA He’s figuring it out. He’s like, ‘How do I get—’

SLIM His next grift.

SEAN Yeah, he’s always on to the next grift. Yes, exactly. And also, I should give you a little bit of background here. Chris Bergoch and I were doing research for my film called Starlet and that’s where we met a handful of Mikey Sabers and realized that there was this archetype in the adult-film industry. This archetype, I found extremely fascinating, for many reasons. They had this psyche that was very complex and I was of two minds about. Because I knew that obviously, some sort of trauma or their background led them to this place, to the survival mode they’re in. And they are narcissistic, they are very ignorant of, you know, the toxic effects they have on other people and the negative, the way they’ve negatively affected other people. They also play the victim all the time. And they also have this incredibly blind optimism about their own future. Their break is just around the corner, even though if they looked at their life, that it’s never turned out that way. But then on the surface level, because they are hustlers, s, they have to be charming, and they have to be appealing. And they’re actually quite entertaining and quite funny. The men that I was hanging out with, like stand up comedians. I was actually enjoying my time with them, laughing. And then at night, I would go home, drive home, and be beating myself up saying, ‘Why was I laughing? Why was I laughing at some of these horrible stories I heard?’ So I was in two minds with them. And I was torn internally. And that’s what I wanted to do with this character study, sort of put this out there in an objective way, without condoning or condemning, without judging, and put the audience in the same place that I was in. So I just wanted to give you the for the people out there who haven’t seen the film yet, that was my intention with this character. And you pointed out that, yeah, there is that sort of, you’re rooting for him in one and you’re rooting for his demise, and the next moment, and that’s exactly how I felt. And I think Simon got—I mean, I know Simon got that. He understood that. He was able to understand he always had to keep Mikey charming. And he always had to keep him in a way where you could have empathy for him. You know what I mean? Even though you’re watching him do these terrible things.

[music from Oasis plays]

GEMMA Speaking of having empathy for surface-level, extremely unlikable characters, we need to talk about another of your four favorites, which is Chang-dong Lee’s Red Rocket! And similarly features someone who at the beginning of the film comes home from having been away and in this case, he’s been in prison. And this is Hong Jong-du, he was in a drunk driving accident it turns out and a man was killed. And the two families, his family and the family of the man who was killed, come together through his growing relationship with the cerebral-palsy-afflicted daughter of the man who was killed. These are some complicated families living in tiny Korean apartments and this is a highly, you know, through his actions in the first fifteen, twenty minutes of the film, you just think no one wants this guy around, he’s one of those parasites on society. And yet, by the end we are all in love with him and with his love. Han Gong-ju played by Moon So-ri. My god, what a film.

SEAN Yeah, it’s definitely one of the most moving films I’ve ever seen and one of the most bold films I’ve ever seen because again, it’s tackling that moral gray and presenting a very complex situation that can be seen in many different ways from many different angles. And when he asks us to actually see the relationship through the woman’s eyes, the woman with cerebral palsy (Gong-ju Han is the character’s name) played by Moon. It even becomes more complex because you realize that the relationship means everything to her, being that she has been so ostracized, and an outcast.

GEMMA But treated so appallingly by her family! My god.

SLIM I want everyone in those families in prison.

SEAN Yeah, exactly.

SLIM I want them all in jail. 100%. [Gemma & Sean laugh]

SEAN I was extremely moved when I saw this film and also extremely impressed that this subject was covered this way. Again, not taking the easy way out, not taking that simple morality tale, that black and white morality tale, big bad wolf, little innocent lamb. That’s why I wanted to avoid that with Red Rocket, because of films like this, and I don’t even think this film could be made in the US right now. Although I hear that they’re trying to do it.

GEMMA Seriously? What they should be doing is trying to find us a copy that’s any better that’s any better than a 480p on YouTube. [Slim laughs]

SEAN There is a wonderful import Blu-ray by the way that I have from Korea.

SLIM I figured you had a nice physical copy. The version that I think maybe that Gemma and I both watched was on YouTube at 480p. I kind of liked the muck and the grime of that copy. Visually it looked like it was shot on DV like 28 Days Later, but it felt like it added to the kind of vibe of the film. At least from my viewing, it kind of enhanced it which is crazy to say.

SEAN No, I actually felt the same way back in the day about Cannibal Holocaust for a long time was unavailable. So seeing it in the most grainy, dark way possible actually added a lot to it. But I know what you’re saying.

GEMMA I mean, we could talk all day but we are running quite low on time so I feel like we need to jump to Oasis has that brilliant filmmaking moment where they literally bring filmmaking into the picture. [Slim laughs] When he’s on the delivery scooter out on the highway and rolls past a film shoot with that really good looking couple in the red car and he pulled a U-turn and starts getting in the shot. “What are you doing? Hey! Who’s movie is it? What is it about? What is it about?”

SLIM I love it. I love it.

SEAN What I also love about Oasis is that, and this is why again, why I find it so inspirational, is that he’s not afraid of always infusing humor, and its behavioral humor. He’s not afraid of doing it where I think normally with covering this sort of subject matter, especially like a US film covering the sort of subject matter, it would be as humorless as possible.

SLIM The last recommendation we have is River’s Edge from Tim Hunter. 1986. 3.6. Average on Letterboxd.

GEMMA Too low.

SEAN Way too low.

SLIM A group of high-school friends discover that they are in the presence of a killer. One of them, Samson, has murdered his girlfriend, Jamie. Brags to his friends about killing her. And when they discover he is telling the truth, their reactions vary. And my main thing is, is Crispin Glover the greatest actor of all time?

SEAN Oh, he’s incredible.

SLIM Is he going to be in your next movie? Can you let us know? Has Crispin been cast?

SEAN I would love to work with him. Absolutely would love to work with him.

GEMMA Crispin Glover and Goldie Hawn in Sean Baker’s next film. [Slim laughs] Bring it home.

SEAN Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You know who I’ve been talking to actually because he lives in my neighborhood, Joshua John Miller, who played Tim and he’s also the younger kid from Near Dark.

SLIM What!

GEMMA And he’s a scriptwriter these days with his partner, right? I mean, this guy is incredible.

SEAN I would love to work with him too.

SLIM That would be incredible. One of my friends wrote a review for this. And he said, “What’s it like to grow up in a time when the world could end at any moment?” Do you your first introduction to River’s Edge? And these kids and the youth of the time?

SEAN Well, yeah, I saw it on VHS back in the day. And , this is like the mid ’80s, so every film that had to deal with youth was essentially in the John Hughes mode. You know what I mean? It was the John Hughes approach, which we all love, obviously, John Hughes is amazing. And I love every film he’s made. But for this to come out, and this came out of nowhere, and this was a totally different approach, much darker. Much more real, based on an actual true story. And it didn’t pull any punches, doesn’t have the nice wrap up ending at the end. This is a dark film that covers dark subject matter. And I also think it’s Keanu Reeves best film, by far, this is his best performance.

GEMMA Agreed.

SEAN And it’s a moving film. It’s a very moving film about apathy and the state of youth.

GEMMA And how to be a good big brother. I really appreciated—

SEAN Oh, interesting.

GEMMA Keanu, he has a few roads he has to go down and one is the potential navigating a romance and one is navigating this relationship that his mother is in with his stepdad and then there’s his role as a big brother to his younger brother and sister. And that for me is the biggest role of all and the biggest journey he goes on, is learning what being a big brother is. He can’t just be a lone teenager. He has to engage and be part of his family in a way that his parents aren’t going to teach him.

[clip of River’s Edge plays]