Best in Show: Guilds, Globes, Puss in Boots and the 1976 Best Director revisited
MIA This week on Best in Show, we’re catching you up on a flurry of Guild nominations, checking the pulse of the Golden Globes, talking to the director of Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, and reevaluating the 1976 Best Director Oscar lineup. Bienvenido, mi casa es su casa, as our amigo Puss would say...
[theme song plays]
MIA Hi and welcome to Best in Show—a limited podcast series brought to you by The Letterboxd Show. I am Mia Vicino, the West Coast Editor here at Letterboxd, and Best in Show is all about awards season! Throughout the series, we’re discussing the noms and gongs, the snubs and surprises in cinema history, and we’re meeting contenders from this year’s movies and interrogating insiders about the film ecosystem. Mostly we do what we always do here at Letterboxd—celebrate cinema. And here again to celebrate cinema with me are my Best in Show besties, Hollywood veteran and our Editorial Producer, Brian Formo...
BRIAN Hola.
MIA And our Editor-in-Chief, Gemma Gracewood...
GEMMA Kia ora. G’day!
MIA Also on our team, outside in the broadcast van with their buttered popcorn and their big gulps, are our resident Fact Finder, Jack’s Facts and the man with the Tapedeck himself, our editor Slim. First up, the news!
GEMMA Oh yeah, bring it on!
MIA So last week we teased that pretty much every craft guild was dropping nominations. So let’s just dive right into those. So at the time of this recording, we had the Directors Guild, the Screen Actors Guild, the American Society of Cinematographers, the Art Directors Guild, and the Sound Editors Golden Reel organizations dropped their nominations, and others also dropped their nominations. So... What are we excited to see get nominated? What’s a surprise? What’s a touchy subject? I know I’m asking that question. But I want to go first, actually. [Gemma laughs]
GEMMA As you should.
MIA Thank you, thank you. Because the DGA—that’s Directors Guild—the DGA nominees are a little bit wacko, not in a negative way. I just mean they’re unexpected. So the good news is, every movie nominated is a Letterboxd fav—so we’ve got Everything Everywhere All at Once, [The Banshees on Inisherin], TÁR, The Fabelmans, but then there’s a dark horse... Top Gun: Maverick.
GEMMA Oh that little indie film. Brian, what’s that all about?
BRIAN Well, Joseph Kosinski getting into Best Director at the DGAs was the biggest surprise out of pretty much all the nominations, because the DGA is usually a good organization to spot a category spoiler, much like their hat-tip to Paweł Pawlikowski for
Cold War a few years ago, which no one was predicting. It came on the DGA nominations and then he was Oscar nominated. But it does feel like all these organizations are kind of tiering things up a little bit more, like they want to go populous. Like, congrats indies and international films, but [Top Gun: Maverick] saved cinema, and in some ways, maybe this nod is a little bit of like a nod to the patience of Kosinski and Paramount and everyone involved for waiting two years to save cinema, to swoop in.
GEMMA I guess, controversial opinion, I’ve seen, I hear this, and I’ve seen a few takes on this already, but I’m not mad or surprised about Joseph Kosinski being in there. He got two things extremely right in Top Gun: Maverick—the camera department in its entirety, especially for that silly Mach Ten business and those shots of the actors actually flying in planes. Oh my gosh. And then you got all the magic hour business on beaches and landing strips with sunrises and sunsets, like that stuff’s gorgeous, and every single close-up of Jennifer Connelly. So on that basis alone...
BRIAN Is that where the sigh comes in? [Gemma laughs]
GEMMA Yeah, a little Jennifer Connelly sigh there, please, Slim. [sigh sounder plays] But, yes, Joseph Kosinski is in there, but you know who’s not? The ladies. Only eight women directors in the Letterboxd Top 50 for 2022. So we already knew it was a bad year for women directors. It’s one of the lowest counts of the last several years and all I can say about that is for 2023, bring on Cocaine Bear and Barbie.
MIA Yes! Or better yet, Cocaine Barbie. [Brian & Gemma laugh] I don’t know, actually. But yes, I agree with that sentiment, Gemma. Instead of nominating—well, I agree with part of the sentiment. Instead of nominating a single woman, they threw Joseph Kosinski in there. And you know, I love [Top Gun: Maverick], to be very clear. It is a great blockbuster. I had a great time at it. I just feel like the strength of it is more in the cinematography rather than the directing, if anybody feels me on that.
GEMMA Ohhhh, your pal Claudio. Right, right, right.
MIA That is all very well deserved. I’m very, very happy for him. I think that that is the strong point. But yeah, that just kind of frustrates me, especially as your pointed out, the women directors are not there. Instead, they are relegated to first-time narrative nominations, which kind of further highlights how freakin’ hard it is for a woman to get a sophomore feature made in this industry.
GEMMA And when she does, she walks into a Don’t Worry Darling shit-storm. RIP.
MIA Yes, yes, exactly. But there is some good news lodged in there, because Charlotte Wells’s Aftersun and Audrey Diwan’s Happening were both nominated for that first time narrative category, even though this is Audrey’s second feature, technically, so she should just be in regular directing, but she’s a lady... So.
GEMMA But in good news from the ASC, that’s the Cinematographers Guild, we do have Australian-woman Mandy Walker in the nominations for Elvis. She’s worked with Baz Luhrmann previously on Australia. And say whatever else you like about it, only good things please, but that is one good-looking film, Elvis. She’s only the third woman after Ari Wegner for [The] Power of the Dog and Rachel Morrison for Black Panther, to receive feature film nods from their own guild. So that is good to see. Also in there, no surprises, our old pal Roger Deakins, the aforementioned Claudio Miranda for [Top Gun: Maverick], Darius Khondji for Bardo, False Chronicle of a Handful of Truths. Love the Directors Guild. And Greig Fraser for emo [The] Batman who won the ASC and the Oscar cinematography award last year for Dune. And just a little shout out, my favorite Irish film The Quiet Girl, I will not stop talking about that girl, is also celebrated here with a Spotlight Award for its cinematographer Kate McCullough. And what’s great is, Kate’s won! That’s her award now. It’s not a competition in the Spotlight section. It’s her award, she can keep it, and that’s what this is all about—recognition. What about you, Brian? What guild do you have your eye on?
BRIAN Well, my eye is on the guild that wouldn’t have me. [Gemma laughs] So when I moved to Los Angeles more than a decade ago, I worked in the art department for a couple of indie movies and one Jack Black web series. So I’m gonna—yeah, I think maybe I have a little bit of an eye for art department stuff. But the guild I never earned enough union job hours to get invited into, but I did meet two dudes on set who ended up becoming groomsmen at my wedding, so Bobby on Excision and Sean in For a Good Time Call...
GEMMA Aw, Bobby and Sean...
BRIAN None of us made it into Art Directors Guild and none of us are doing art department anymore.
GEMMA But why is that? Why?
BRIAN Yeah, so the guild system is pretty brutal entry points if you’re working on non union set, which a lot of indie films are. You have to get flipped into being union jobs. So it’s kind of like a chicken and the egg situation for a while when you’re starting out. So a lot of people who get in the guilds have persevered. But once you’re in, you get to nominate cool shit and have health benefits, I guess.
MIA What?! Health benefits? I can only dream of health benefits.
GEMMA That’s the dream. Never mind the Oscar, I want the health benefits.
BRIAN Actually, once you’re in, these are very, very quality unions, that’s why they are kind of little gatekeep-y. But anyway, like many of these Guild Awards, they do divide up their—it’s not just like the Oscars where it’s Best Cinematography or Best Costume Design, they divide them into certain genre categories. So the Art Departments Guild, they have twenty nominees—it’s for production design for period, contemporary, fantasy and animated as well.
GEMMA Ah, wow.
BRIAN So, amongst all those, can’t go through all them, but I am excited to see that in period film, alongside Babylon, Elvis, The Fabelmans, and All Quiet on the Western Front, they chose to highlight Jess Gonchor for his work on White Noise. And while I’m scared that films set in the ’80s are now considered ‘period pieces’...
GEMMA Yeah, that’s doing my head in right now.
BRIAN The best aspects of White Noise, I think, is the way that it looks. The very unique designs and not just recreating some fabrics that were popular in the ’80s, but making the makeup college on a hill look like a daycare, fast-food, Olympics mashup hybrid of all that stuff. And that it also features the type of supermarket that capitalism promises but is not able to give. I loved to the production design of White Noise, probably even more than the movie.
MIA Speaking of White Noise, we’re all familiar with Adam Driver...
GEMMA Who?
MIA Correct? [Gemma laughs] He was nominated for Best Actor in a Comedy at the Golden Globes, but get this—he was one of 28 no-shows.
GEMMA 28 no-shows!
MIA Ah!
GEMMA 28 no-shows—surely not all of those people can be on set at the moment, because this is awards season, right? People make themselves available. What does that tell us? Are the Golden Globes back for some people but not 28 people? [Mia laughs]
MIA Yeah, exactly, the Golden Globes are back. But are they really back? Because I mean, they gave out the awards of course and everyone stared in awe at Jennifer Coolidge, including Colin Farrell who helped her up the stairs. But are the Golden Globes really back? Let’s take it to Brian, our awards veteran, give us your insight, please.
BRIAN Well, quite honestly, the only way we’ll know that they’re back is beyond this week, to see if a network or a streamer picks up the show next year or for multiple years. They were on a one-year prove-it deal, that’s a sports terminology.
MIA Ahhh, you’re losing me.
GEMMA Yay, sports... [Gemma laughs]
BRIAN As we’ve already established, sports and awards season aren’t really that different in their competitive waves. So this was their final contract year with NBC, after NBC put them on probation last year. They’ve been broadcast on NBC every year since 1958. First, it was locally in LA and then it was nationally from 1964 through this year’s—there were two exceptions. It wasn’t just when they were put on probation last year for not having enough Black . Way back in the ’60s, they were fined by the FCC—that’s the Federal Communications Commission—for misleading the public because they threatened to undo awards if the recipient refused to come, which is appropriate from what you said.
GEMMA What does that mean?
MIA Wait—
GEMMA Like if you don’t come, we won’t give you your award that you won for the work that you did?
BRIAN Correct. So it was considered misleading the public because they’re saying, “this is the winner,” but behind closed doors—and again, this is the late-’60s into the ’70s. But I’ll take an example of someone who did not show up in 2023, and that was Aubrey Plaza. Let’s say if Aubrey Plaza won for Emily the Criminal, but she didn’t confirm she’s going to come receive the award, then they would decide before it aired to give it to somebody else, someone who would actually show up. So that’s why they were taken off in the air from 1968 to 1974. Maybe that’s a little confusing, because I used Aubrey Plaza, but you probably have followed along at this point. [Brian laughs]
GEMMA Okay, so among us, Mia, you are the one who sat through the live broadcast, this last possible live broadcast if they don’t get their contract renewed. How was it for you?
MIA So I had not watched the Golden Globes in a while. I had boycotted when Ricky Gervais hosted —who re that? And then they were not broadcast last year, and honestly, I only watched this year because I was getting paid to, much like Jerrod Carmichael only hosted because he was getting paid $500,000, as he said in his opening monologue—which by the way, he rocked it. He had these really great jokes and insights throughout the whole ceremony that were provocative in a very good way, not like a punching down, mean type of way. And friend of Letterboxd, Selome Hailu, had a great write up of his monologue and highlights in Variety that I super recommend checking out. If you decided to boycott or just plain old didn’t know they were on, as many seemed not to.
GEMMA Also, I heard that Steven Spielberg named dropped John Cassavetes, so that must have been a good twenty seconds for you, Mia.
MIA Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up, Gemma. Because you know, you know I would have otherwise. So for those who didn’t see, Quentin Tarantino presented Spielberg with Best Picture for The Fabelmans, and he told him that John Cassavetes would be so proud of him, causing Spielberg to tell this story.
[clip of Spielberg’s acceptance speech plays]
STEPHEN SPIELBERG I could just say one thing that Quentin said to me when he gave me this award, he said that John Cassavetes would be so proud. And because—he said that because I was John Cassavetes’s PA on one of his movies. I got him coffee, I got them anything they wanted, I ran around, I ran around that set, which was like a 16mm camera and a lot of noise. And whatever they wanted, I ran out to delis and got him stuff. And that’s why I treat my PAs so kindly. Because I know what it feels like. [applause]
MIA Woo! That was my favorite and most unexpected W of the night. [Mia laughs] What’s also unexpected is that Netflix just announced they’re picking up the Screen Actors Guild Awards. So apart from that it’s entirely celebrity focused, Brian, what does that mean?
BRIAN Means the futures are here. I’m doing it again. Movies are taking a page from sports, because Prime Video has had a contract with NFL for weekly games and that’s been doing very, very well. It felt like it was inevitable that a lot of the live shows that we’re accustomed to seeing on network television might be moving to streaming. So I’m sorry but I’m going to be dropping as many sports analogies as you guys do John Cassavetes mentions.
GEMMA It’s fine, it’s fine, Brian. I have a question to throw in here. If Letterboxd were to stream an award ceremony, who would we give a multi-year contract to? What would be your favorite award ceremony to do that with?
MIA Indie Spirits.
BRIAN Yeah, Indie Spirits. But, let’s see if I can think of something different off the spot... Nah, it’s the Spirits. [Brian & Gemma laugh]
MIA We’re very pro-Indie Spirits. They have a John Cassavetes award. I won’t shut up about it.
GEMMA Nice.
BRIAN Oh! You’re just trying to one-up me at this point now. I’m gonna find another place to put sports. [Gemma & Brian laugh] One thing to mention just about the—so Netflix has this deal, but they actually haven’t finished the tech yet. So this year, they’re going to be airing the SAG Awards on their YouTube channel. And next year, 2024, is when it will be on their platform. So they still have a little bit of bugs to figure out. So hey, I mean, maybe Letterboxd could sweep in there and steal it.
MIA Okay, we have to move on, because it is a huge week. So we are going into Oscar slash BAFTA nomination week. So there are no more long lists, just nominations. At the time of this recording, we will find out in the next few days who the finalists are for those two big awards ceremonies.
GEMMA And there’s plenty of punditry out there, right, about what the Guild Awards mean as predictions. But here at Best in Show, we’re not in the predictions game, we talk about ‘what is’ rather than ‘what might be’. Having said that, we do have our own personal hopes and dreams. Mia, do you have a personal hope or dream for the Oscars or BAFTAs?
MIA Yes, yes, I do. And I truly believe this is going to happen. I really believe that Colin Farrell is going to win the Oscar this year. I’m putting all my chips on it, out of both love and manifestation. I mean, he was in four great movies this year. And also it’s the Academy’s chance to atone for not nominating him for In Bruges and The Lobster—he he—that one I understand the lack of nomination, but I don’t understand it in my heart, if that makes sense.
BRIAN That is my favorite Colin performance, even though I’m not like a huge [The] Lobster fan, but I love him in that.
GEMMA I love lobster. If someone wants to call me and bring me some fresh lobster, I’m available.
MIA No! We’re protecting him!
GEMMA Oh, sorry! [Gemma & Mia laugh]
BRIAN Colin was actually also kind of protecting Ana de Armas at the Golden Globes as well because when he won the, which he was presented by Ana herself, when he won, before he even started in thanking anybody that worked on [The] Banshees of Inisherin, he spent about 30 seconds telling her and everyone at home, prospective voters, everyone in the room, how much he loved her performance in Blonde and that it moved him to tears.
GEMMA What?!
MIA Yes, he said that he cried himself to sleep after watching Blonde. Like, I love him, I’m sorry. I love him and his sensitive soul, we need more of that.
GEMMA What about Deep Water, Colin? Did you like Ana de Armas in Deep Water? Did you cry? I need to know.
BRIAN I cried laughing at the chase scene toward the end when Tracy Letts loses his phone, that was the funniest moment of 2022.
GEMMA Film Spotting, shout out Film Spotting, they asked the other day on Twitter, what was the moment that made you cry laughing the most in 2022? And I replied, ”the bike car chase scene in Deep Water.” [Gemma laughs] I just think it’s the funniest thing in the world. You can watch it out of context, it will be funny. Watch it in context with the entire film, it’s even funnier. Anyway, Brian, hopes and dreams?
BRIAN I don’t really have hopes and dreams...
MIA Aw... Brian...
BRIAN That’s in relation to Oscar and BAFTA nominations, that is.
GEMMA Oh, fewf.
MIA You scared me, Brian. You can’t just say stuff like that.
BRIAN I kind of just roll with what’s nominated. I think obsessing over every announcement is going to only make people very, very upset and we can’t change anything. So I’ll just root when there’s people to root for because it’s already been determined. That’s how I approach it. But that’s also because I’ve been burned so much in the past. I’ve learned my lesson.
MIA Gemma, you have to share your hope and dream.
GEMMA I just want to see those Daniels up on those stages for something, anything, to do with Everything Everywhere All at Once. Best Original Screenplay, Best Butt Plug in a Movie, anything, just put those lovely, crying boys on stage. It’s so lovely watching them watch their actors win things but I would love to see them win more than just Highest Rated film of Letterboxd of 2022.
BRIAN The trophy is in the mail, by the way.
GEMMA Yes!
BRIAN We did make some trophies to give numerous recipient winner hers from Letterboxd Year in Review. The same trophy company that made the Golden Globes, FYI.
MIA What...
GEMMA So if you didn’t get a Golden Globe, it’s okay, because you might get a Letterboxd trophy, just like the Daniels.
BRIAN Actually, I take back everything that I said before. I do actually have one hope, more so because she’s fresh face and she was left out at the Globes, because Globes gonna Globe. I really hope that Danielle Deadwyler shows up for Till, which is one of my favorite performances of the year, and she a hundred thousand percent deserves to be there. What about you, Mia?
MIA Well, first, I just want to second your Danielle Deadwyler sentiment. It’s such an incredibly powerful performance, I highly recommend you seek out the film Till, she definitely deserves a nomination for that. One of my—I’ll share one more little personal hope and dream. I just want to see Mitski and David Byrne and Son Lux for their [Everything Everywhere All at Once] song, This Is A Life, up on that stage. I think we need to get them up there. So to any voting of the Academy, you know, the ballots are due today. So, come on, let’s get Mitski up there. And on that note, the BAFTA, that is the British Academy of Film and Television Awards will release their nominations Thursday, but the EE BAFTA Rising Star Award, which everyone can vote on, is open today. Public voting! Woohoo! We love it.
GEMMA We love it. The link is in our notes. Go on, get in there and vote for that girl from Aftersun and that girl from The Quiet Girl, vote for all the girls. Speaking of rising stars and public voting and girls, we’ve got a little message from Domee Shi, the director of Turning Red. She has already won an Oscar for her animated short film Bao, and she goes into Oscar season with another very important public voted award: the Most Watched Directorial Debut in the Letterboxd Year in Review. Here is Domee’s acceptance speech...
[clip of Domee Shi plays]
DOMEE SHI Hey everyone, I’m Domee Shi, the director of Turning Red. Thank you so much Letterboxd and all the fans and people who liked and watched our movie. It means a lot. Thank you so much. Turning Red is a love letter to puberty, to anime, to my Chinese Canadian heritage. But also, it’s just a love letter to embracing the mess of growing up, because we’ve all been there, you know? It’s amazing that this personal story has been so well-received and resonated with so many people all over the world. And really just proves that no matter where we come from, or how old we are, we’ve all been embarrassed by our moms. So thank you again and see you at the movies.
MIA Ah yes, I’m so happy for her. Turning Red was one of my favorites of the year. I watched it a couple times even. And that takes us beautifully behind the curtain this week. So here is a quick look at animation as an awards category, as well as an interview with one of this year’s contenders, Joel Crawford, who directed Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, along with Januel Mercado.
GEMMA I am truly in my element right now, Mia, this is one of my favorite curtains to step behind. Thanks for taking us there. And what an incredible year 2022 was for animation. I mean, you could say that in almost every year, but let’s look at the Letterboxd Year in Review alone. Marcel the Shell With Shoes On, not only the highest rated animated film, the third highest rated film overall. That is a massive step up for stop-motion. The other nine in the top ten Letterboxd highest rated animation are all incredible. Such diversity of creators and stories and styles. So much gorgeous handmade 2d and masterful 3d CG work in Turning Red, Inu-Oh, Entergalactic, [Apollo 10½: A Space Age Childhood], of course a couple of feature-length celebrations of television in there, with Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and The Bob’s Burgers Movie. Really, an embarrassment of riches for a wonderful genre.
BRIAN Unlike Gemma, I am out of my element and in talking about animated films, so I am going to quote Guillermo del Toro in his acceptance speech at the Golden Globes and he’s been saying this everywhere he’s going, he might say it again at the Critics Choice, he might say it again at the Oscars, he might, it depends on how many things he wins.
GEMMA He probably says it in his sleep. He says it in his sleep, I’m sure.
BRIAN He probably says it in his sleep at this point. [Gemma laughs] But the quote is, “animation is cinema, not a genre for kids—it’s a medium.”
GEMMA And he has A, right and B, obviously punting for a Best Picture nomination, just to get that little one boy out of animation and into, you know, feature films. One other thing to note going into, you know, as we go through awards season and look at the animated features coming through, is one thing I love about the world of animation is how open the studios are to sharing their secrets and opening up the workflow during production so they don’t save their secrets for any kind of, you know, behind the scenes making-of DVD much later on. They do things like at the annual Annecy International Animation Film Festival, for example, which is really the core of the animation scenes calendar year, artists travel from all over the world to share their works and progress with other animation artists. This past year, Guillermo del Toro and the [Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse] guys both showed up to give first looks. It’s amazing to see big studio projects show sketches and unfinished scenes. I don’t know, Brian, is this the kind of stuff we see at other major industry conferences and other genres?
BRIAN Oh, I do have something else to say. Yes, I have seen glorious, unfinished footage at Cinema Con, which is where exhibitors from all around North America get together in Las Vegas and basically watch all the studios present their slate, they bring out celebrities. This is where Olivia Wilde was served papers last year. The event itself, if you didn’t know what that is, but you saw that viral moment, that is where you present your slate. And a lot of the animated films, they will show completely uncompleted and it’s gorgeous. It’s so fun to see. It’s like flipping through a flipbook except the screen is IMAX, it’s so beautiful to see but. But at Cinema Con, they are not going to show you like uncut or unfinished Venom footage or anything like that. Because immediately people would be tweeting how awful it looks. But with animation, there’s kind of hope in seeing the start of it.
GEMMA Yeah, and when you do share footage early, you get better teeth on Sonic the Hedgehog. So it’s definitely worth doing. It’s a beautiful sharing of the craft, celebrating the teams, many of whom have made these films remotely for the past several years. Let’s not forget, instead of keeping these beautiful secrets to themselves...
MIA And yet, and yet there was still a beautiful animation secret, which is just how freakin’ good Puss in Boots: The Last Wish is!
GEMMA Holla!
MIA So good! Yes, yes! So good in fact, that it is ranked number nine on our Year in Review. So that is over [The] Banshees of Inisherin, TÁR and many, many more amazing films. I’ve said this before, I’m not even mad about Puss in Boots swashbuckling his way into the top ten. I think it’s amazing. And we got to speak to director Joel Crawford about fear, anxiety and something that gives many fear and anxiety—improv. So, when Gemma and I spoke with Joel, we started at the beginning: eleven years after his previous solo film and twelve years after the final Shrek film. Why have returned to the land of Puss in Boots?
[theme song plays]
JOEL CRAWFORD When Antonio Banderas voiced Puss in Boots in Shrek 2, he stole the show, and he was instantly so charming. And so for us, it’s like, there’s a reason there was a spin-off movie of Puss in Boots because he can hold his own story. And it was really important that we didn’t do anything to distract from this huge, ambitious story that we had in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. And so for us, it was like, ‘let’s be with Puss in Boots.’ I mean, this is such a big nugget of an idea of a cat... on his last life... he’s burned through eight of his nine lives. And in itself, what I’ve always loved is it’s so absurd. It’s such a fairy tale premise. But then there’s so much meaningful discussion underneath that idea of, it’s really a journey of Puss realizing he’s mortal and he’s down to one life, which as human beings, we’re all just gifted with one life. And it becomes this bigger, deeper story that has so much to unpack. So for us, it was like, ‘let’s not distract from telling this story in a meaningful way.’
MIA Yeah, I really enjoyed the story. It’s so—I mean, it’s dark, which I love. And it actually, I was getting a lot of The Seventh Seal vibes, which is a crazy thing to say about the Puss in Boots: The Last Wish movie, but for real, I was thinking about Bergman.
JOEL CRAWFORD That movie, I think, it was a couple years ago, so my twelve-year-old daughter would have been ten, I couldn’t sleep at night and I watched The Seventh Seal.
GEMMA As you do...
JOEL CRAWFORD And my ten-year-old daughter at like two in the morning, she couldn’t sleep either, so she watched that whole movie with me. [Mia gasps] [Gemma & Joel laugh]
GEMMA I think one of the things that Mia and I both pulled out of Puss in Boots: The Last Wish which is just how deep and how dark you can go with family entertainment, and you’ve really pushed the boat out. And I wanted to say, I wanted to read you a review, there’s a few interesting reviews of [Puss in Boots: The Last Wish], but Letterboxd member Joel Haver writes, “So expressive from start to finish that it makes me question what Hollywood is even doing otherwise and how this even got made within that brain dead system.” Which is a very outsider of point of view, right? Okay, so here’s the thing. I’ve never been to a more fun movie preview—they served as Puss-shaped cookies, they gave us strawberry milk, Antonio came on the screen and said hello to us. I knew I would have a good time because I always have a good time with Puss. But I did not expect it to go quite this hard. The Cave of Lost Souls scene when Puss confronts the reflections of his past lives. So, for Letterboxd member Joel Haver and the rest of us, can you take us behind the scenes of describe—you’ve talked about a few of the DreamWorks execs, but that the dynamics, that maybe industry outsiders don’t quite understand, that need to exist for something to go quite this hard and this deep and this dark?
JOEL CRAWFORD You know, it’s interesting, I think, I think back to our core team that was making this film, we all. because we’ve worked together so long—so the production designer Nate Wragg, also, we worked with, he was production designer on The Croods: A New Age, and then one of the writers, Paul Fisher, also we worked with in the past, and I’ve known for quite a while. And what happens is you have this, you have all these talented people who bring different points of view and we kind of treat it like a writers room where our editor will be in the conference room with us, our head of story, the writer, the producer, Mark Swift, is genius with story and then the co-director and myself and then Nate Wragg would pop in for certain subjects as well. And what you have, we’re kind of like a little family that like, is so comfortable with each other that we have no problem challenging each other. And I think you get these situations where we all know the story we’re telling, we all know we’re making a comedy. We set out to make a comedy but as the story kind of tells you where it wants to go, you discover these things and you trust each other. And I think that that trust we have in our small group, and that kind of openness to challenge each other extended to the studio. And so, you know, Margie Cohn and Kristin Lowe would also, they call out things that didn’t work or would even challenge us to elevate the storytelling. And I think one of the real, the first sign of trust was when I came onto the movie, I pitched them of course, “This is Puss in Boots, it’s part of the Shrek world, it’s gonna be big and funny.” And the first scene we put into production was the bar fight with the Wolf, which Puss gets cut and bleeds the first blood of Dreamworks movie.
MIA Is it really the first blood in a DreamWorks film? Is it history-making?
JOEL CRAWFORD You know, it is if you don’t count the blood in [The] Prince of Egypt.
MIA Oh, we won’t count it. We won’t count it just for Puss. [Gemma laughs]
JOEL CRAWFORD First CG blood... [Joel laughs]
GEMMA But this is the thing—so my kid jumped into my lap during that scene, and Nick on Letterboxd writes, “Tell me why this animated wolf gave me ten times more chills than 90% of horror movie villains.” Like, this shit gets dark, Joel.
JOEL CRAWFORD And you know what? It’s interesting, because it is a conversation where it’s like, this is a family movie, and we’ve got a big meaningful message. And I think, you know, we can go beyond what audiences are expect of an animated movie, not just in the way it’s executed visually, but also in the themes, the subject matter, that it’s appropriate for kids. it’s a big life lesson. But, you know, I think the reason the Wolf is actually so terrifying—well, first Wagner Moura is an amazing actor, he brought so much to the discussion, like we really worked hard to find an authentic character. And I think that authenticity in the performance and also in the writing of the character comes through where he’s—and we’re always saying this, the Wolf, he’s actually not the villain, he’s an antagonist to Puss but he’s not wrong. Puss is one that has the flawed point of view. And so for us, we were like, we’re not making a villain in the classic sense. He has this vendetta, rightfully so, against Puss who doesn’t appreciate life and therefore doesn’t respect death. And it turns into this kind of Samurai showdown that it’s building to and I think that was, that’s something that I think carries over when you’re watching it. It feels deep and thought out and so it doesn’t feel like something that’s a jumpscare—it’s looming.
GEMMA Mia has a cat called Brad, who is a big part of our team meetings, a big part of this podcast. [Gemma laughs]
JOEL CRAWFORD Does Brad like to walk across the camera?
MIA He needs a lot of attention, yes. He’ll like scratch at the door and make a lot of noise if I’m not paying attention to him and he needs to be at the center of attention at all times. He’s got some Puss vibes, I’ll say it. [Gemma & Joel laugh]
GEMMA And it’s funny because, you know, we haven’t met Brad in person, but these animals, like humans, if you meet them once, if you meet them ten times, they’re just as meaningful. I guess on Perrito though, dogs haven’t really had much of a look-in in the Shrek universe, the SCU, as it were. [Joel laughs]
JOEL I like that.
GEMMA Why did your team want to bring justice for Chihuahua lovers worldwide with the introduction of Perrito the dog from the cat home?
JOEL CRAWFORD I mean, I think it’s one of those things that for us we were trying to create this story where you’ve got Puss in Boots returning, you’ve got Kitty Softpaws voiced by Selma Hayek returning, and you love these characters, and they’re so worked out themselves. And for this story, we wanted to introduce a character that not only surprised Puss and Kitty but also surprised the audience, almost that he’s a part of the story. And what I mean by that is, you have the story with all these larger-than-life like fairy tale characters which are really badass, right? You got Kitty Softpaws, Puss in Boots, we have this this big bad Wolf, we have Jack Horner voiced by John Mulaney. Goldilocks and the Three Bears, which are this kind of Guy Ritchie-esque crime family.
GEMMA A crime family voiced by Florence Pugh and Olivia Coleman, no less.
JOEL CRAWFORD Oh, I mean, really the riches of voice talent on this. I mean, Ray Winstone as Papa Bear, and then Samson Kayo as Baby. So you have all these characters who really are—for us the template of this movie was The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, but we called it The Good, the Bad and the Goldie. So you have all these characters who are after this ultimate prize, the Swishing Star, we needed a character who surprised the audience, who didn’t belong on this journey, if we go by the book. This little dog that is so just sweet and honest., who is the opposite of all the other characters, he wants nothing more than just to appreciate the connections he has. He doesn’t want to wish. So that’s kind of how we ended up with this little dog. And I have to say, for myself and the co-director, we’re really inspired by Sergio Leone movies and Akira Kurosawa movies and there’s a couple tie-ins to that. So this dog who starts movies, the dog with no name is an homage to the Man with No Name. And even going deeper into our geekiness, one of my favorite movies is Seven Samurai and Toshiro Mifune’s character, Kikuchiyo, he was this character who’s like, you know, he was this rogue who tagged along with the honorable Samurai, but he carried the heart with him that he ended up being appreciated and valued.
GEMMA Look, if some seven-year-old watching Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, then makes this cinephile journey to Toshiro Mifune in the Seven Samurai, I’m a hundred percent okay with that, and I wonder if, since Letterboxd is all about celebrating the movies we love, could you geek out a little more and share some of the other cinematic influences or any shots you borrowed directly from other films that you haven’t talked about yet, that you haven’t had a chance to share?
MIA This is a very geek-friendly space, also.
JOEL CRAWFORD Love it.
MIA So, go all out.
JOEL CRAWFORD Okay. I love it. This is amazing. I mean, one I haven’t mentioned, I haven’t previously mentioned—I mentioned Toshiro Mifune, which Akira Kurosawa used in so many of his films. Another one that I think almost unconsciously inspired the dog, another movie is Red Beard, which I the first time I watched that movie, I was just crying because it’s about this doctor, this young doctor, he’s rich and he has to, he doesn’t really appreciate why we help people. It was that about the honor that comes with it. And out of Red Beard, he’s like the drop of of inspiration that shows kindness. And that kind of exudes from then the young doctor to the girl that he’s mentoring and to a boy and it was just spreading kindness and love. And I think that unconsciously was part of when I say Toshiro Mifune, not just in Seven Samurai, but this character with Perrito, we knew he wasn’t just a sidekick, he actually, we wanted him to really carry the heart of the movie and let that spread to everybody else. So that’s one geek out element.
GEMMA I love that. And for listeners, I have to mention that Red Beard is number 131 on the Letterboxd Top 250 of all-time, so add to watchlists immediately.
JOEL CRAWFORD Yes, seriously, it made me cry when I watched it. It’s such a beautiful film.
MIA I could say the same thing about Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, that one made me cry. It’s a beautiful film. I’m not kidding! I was crying in the theater. I saw this at 9:15am in 3D with a group of friends and we were crying, we were laughing...
GEMMA But did you have strawberry milk and Puss-shaped cookies? I mean, this is the thing.
MIA No... Ah, that’s the problem with the AMC! [Gemma laughs]
JOEL CRAWFORD Another inspiration that came to us and Nate Wragg really kind of, he was the one who spearheaded this, this painterly look of the movie, this fairy tale look. And also, tonally, you mentioned it goes to some darker, surprising places. For us, going back to the original Shrek, which was kind of a game changer for the animation industry at the time. Because it introduced, it took fairy tales and it introduced them in a new way, which was I think a lot more—it wasn’t animated for kids. It was for everybody and there was a lot of humor that actually went over kids heads and was for the adults. And there was an edginess to this expansion of fairy tales. For us, we really wanted to bring back that edginess and comedy, but also go to some new surprising territory with Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, which was Nate Wragg found the the Grimm Fairy Tales as inspiration, which is an extension of the Shrek world but you go, ‘we can go to some scarier places,’ which felt right for this story. Those Grimm Fairy Tales were always a, they were like a cautionary tale, which a lot of them involved wolves as well, as the bad guys. [Joel laughs]
MIA Yeah, I thought that you depicted fear in such an authentic way and I can only imagine—I mean, if you’re a little kid who has anxiety and you watch this, I would feel represented by Puss when he has like, you know, he’s starting to deal with fear which is something that a lot of children deal with, a lot of adults deal with, I deal with it all the time. This is a movie for everyone.
JOEL CRAWFORD Absolutely.
MIA And I really think that that showed through. I love that it’s about fear and anxiety because that’s such a prevalent thing and I think you pulled it off really well and I think it’s going to mean a lot.
JOEL CRAWFORD Aw, thank you, because that was part of our conversation of like, we’re taking Puss in Boots, he’s always been the superhero, and in Shrek 2 when he’s introduced and in the first Puss in Boots, he’s kind of the superhero who doesn’t show this vulnerability. And we thought, especially in conversation with Antonio Banderas, we were really excited to show the world another side and even a more relatable side. And like you’re saying, I think it’s not only great for adults to experience this but also kids who you think about the past few years and how much anxiety, how much stress children have been under, and that’s a great point, Mia, that they can look at the screen and go, “I when I felt like that, when when fear took over and I had the shortness of breath,” and then to see this therapy dog, Perrito... [Gemma & Mia laugh]
GEMMA Basically.
JOEL CRAWFORD Put his head on Puss’s chest.
GEMMA Ahhh, that moment, and his breathing slows. And honestly, it’s kind of like My Neighbor Totoro in the fact that after watching that a billion times, my kid runs to hug a tree and connect with the forest spirits when he’s having a moment.
JOEL CRAWFORD That’s beautiful.
GEMMA I can’t really thank you and your workmates enough for bringing us these tools. And I did want to ask about the last few years, how have you managed your and your children’s anxiety? And are there any films or other forms of art that have particularly helped or that you return to alone or with your kids to do that?
JOEL CRAWFORD That’s a great question. I mean, the last few years—so 2020, I was finishing up [The Croods: A New Age], and we finished over half that movie from home. And that was my first feature that I directed. And I how alone I felt just being at home and working like this all day where we were virtual. And that kind of anxiety that kind of set in, like, ‘how am I going to do this?’ Thankfully, I had such a great team in the producer, Mark Swift, and the co-director, that we—this was on [The Croods: A New Age], that we had that shorthand and I quickly found that connection, and as soon as we could get back into the studio, when we started Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, we all came back together and appreciate it even more of being able to be there and be in the same room. As far as my kids, it’s something I’ve been geeking out about how much I love Sergio Leone, Akira Kurosawa, but comedies are such a wonderful way to release stress, anxiety. And that’s why, like I said, I set out to make Puss in Boots: The Last Wish a comedy and it is, because I really appreciate what comedies can do, where it’s such a disarming way to tell the truth. And and so I think with the kids, something we used to love to do my kids, ever since they were small, there’s a little theater near my house and we would go to an improv show. And my kids have been around improv for a long time. And my five-year-old, she’s shouting out suggestions for the improvisers. And so that was something we always loved in of being in kind of live performance. And then when the pandemic hit, we couldn’t go and do that anymore, but they started doing it virtually. And we would sit around the computer and get to it still enjoy it. So I think comedy is such a powerful, therapeutic tool.
MIA You were mentioning improv and I’m always so curious about voice acting for animation and the limitations of improv, you know, and I was curious if any of the cast have this, you know, as we’ve discussed, like Florence Pugh, Olivia Coleman, John Mulaney, Ray Winstone, all these great actors. Did they do any surprising or delightful improv things that made it into the movie? Or was it all just you kind of have to stick to the script because of the animated nature?
JOEL CRAWFORD I love that you’re asking that, because I could tell you, this movie was very special in not only the crew that that made it, but the cast, their participation was above and beyond. That’s something where, I don’t know if it’s well known, but in animation, because of everybody’s schedules, you don’t get Antonio Banderas and Salma Hayek in the room at the same time. And you’re constantly trying to create these moments on screen that feel spontaneous, feel like it’s live happening, but it’s written out and recorded. And so I love improvising with the actors, because I feel like it allows us to find that kind of lightning in a bottle, that if you were on a live action set you would be finding in the moment. And so it’s a little bit more broken up in our process. But so Florence Pugh was amazing at just finding—like she would always read exactly what I had in the script, but then for her, it’s these expressions where she would do something after she read it and I was like, “you don’t like that one do you?” She’s like, “No, I just feel like—” and there’s this kind of honesty, and she would find these amazing moments. I mean, and that extends to the whole cast. Antonio Banderas was such a great partner in this conversation about vulnerability and where Puss goes and at finding ways to say things that maybe we weren’t picturing when we when we set out to record the line. Salma Hayek improvises like crazy, and she is so funny. And what I also love about her is she not only finds the truth in her character, but also in the other characters. We would do these kinds of table reads every time we were going to go through a scene, and she really would search for like, what’s the point of the scene? What are we getting across? And so not just concerned with her own character, and she would have this way of unlocking these scenes and a lot of times, one of the fun things with Antonio Banderas and Salma Hayek, is they know each other so well, that even though they weren’t in the same room, Salma, like the first time I was gonna play a line for her of Antonio. And she’s like, “I know how he’d read it.” [Gemma laughs] And she does this amazing impression of him. What was really cool about this cast was, from the very beginning, we knew we were going to get amazing performances. But what I didn’t know was that they would go above and beyond in like, really calling—they helped find the themes of the movie because of our conversations, where something they all brought into perspective, as we would record, and we’d rewrite based on our conversations, was this thing of appreciating what we have. So John Mulaney, as Jack Horner, John is so quick and smart and amazing writer and actor. When we were pitching his character, he tapped into it right away. He’s like, “this is a character who’s searching for this external happiness to fill this internal void. And he’s never going to get it.” And we wrote around that perception.
GEMMA Ah, John Mulaney... Ahhh...
JOEL CRAWFORD That’s the thing, like each of them brought so much to the part. One last little cool thing, Ray Winstone as Papa Bear... I mean, he didn’t have that many lines because you have this whole ensemble, but each one counts so much. And the first time we were pitching, we met with Florence Pugh to pitch to her, you know, Goldilocks and the Three Bears and who was cast. Each of them all geeked out about each other. Florence was like, “No way, you got to Olivia Coleman as my mom and Samson Kayo as Baby Bear?” And Olivia Coleman when she found out that Ray Winstone was going to be Papa Bear, she was like, ”I’m married to Ray!” [Gemma & Mia & Joel laugh]
[theme music fades in]
MIA Bless Joel Crawford and his little cat too. And a quick note, along with all the other guilds, animators have a party of their own, they will be getting glammed up for the 50th Annual Annie Awards on February 25. You can see the nominees at the link in our episode notes. Speaking of parties, it is time for the Best in Show After Party. All award ceremonies have that moment after the final gong when you get to loosen your tie, unbutton your jacket, take your bra off, kick those heels under the table and assess our life choices. And play a few party games! This is that moment for Best in Show. This is the After Party.
GEMMA My bra was already off at the start of this record. TMI?
MIA Oh good, you’re ahead of the game. No, not TMI, we that. [Gemma laughs]
BRIAN I have some ‘I’, I have some information. [Brian & Gemma laugh]
MIA Spill the ‘I’ Brian...
BRIAN Gemma, in the last episode, you said you would give the first person to create a list for the Himbo Thrillers, which I still can’t believe wasn’t on Letterboxd.
GEMMA I know!
BRIAN And we would bestow a year of Pro upon them.
GEMMA Oh yes.
BRIAN So can we do that?
GEMMA We can do that.
BRIAN Little Dear, step on down!
MIA Little Dear...
GEMMA Little Dear, who I wasn’t following, I had never heard of, always quite excited to discover a new Letterboxd member. Did go ahead, Brian, and create a list of one of your favorite sub-genres, Himbo Thrillers, and there’s some good ones on there, right? Michael Clayton...
BRIAN Yeah, gonna have to add Deep Water though, I’m reminded when we were taking about that. [Brian & Gemma laugh]
GEMMA Gone Girl is on there for Ben Affleck representation, so there is that. Yeah, Little Dear, you now have Pro hip for a year. Thank you.
MIA Okay, okay enough himbo talk, I could talk about himbos for hours, you know me. But it’s time to play The Heart Rate. So this is our Best in Show game, invented by me, your resident Jigsaw. Here’s how it works: every week one of us selects a year, category and awards show. We watch the nominees of the year, we rank the films by the ratio of logs to likes on Letterboxd, we find out what the Academy decided and we announce who we would have given that trophy to. So last week, Brian chose the 49th Annual Academy Award nominees for Best Director and here they are ranked by rating...
BRIAN We have Sidney Lumet for Network, Alan J. Pakula for All the President’s Men, John G. Avildsen for Rocky, Lina Wertmüller for Seven Beauties and Ingmar Bergman for Face to Face. Ingmar was mentioned in the Joel chat, so he shows up here too. But Face to Face is the only film to not have a 4.0 rating or higher. It sits at 3.8 which is still solid, but all the other films are 4.0 or higher.
GEMMA Okay, so ranked by ratings, Network is the toppity-top. But what happens, Mia, tell us, when hearts are taken into ?
MIA Things get shaken up a little bit, I’ll tell you what. So Network, I just want to say that Network is a Letterboxd favorite. It is in our Top 250 of All-time. It is sitting pretty at number 245 on the Letterbox Top 250 films of All-Time, you know, because [Puss in Boots: The Last Wish] was pushing it out of there. But then second, we have Seven Beauties, people love that one. It beat out All the President’s Men, Rocky and Face to Face. I mean, the fact that it beat out Rocky is amazing. When anything beats out Rocky, that is commendable.
GEMMA Wow. That’s wildly surprising to me. I mean, it’s just cuz the whole concept of the heart, right, along with the rating is great film, heart, great film, I might watch it a lot. Loved it. It made me feel things. And I just think, you know, All the President’s Men, it’s a classic himbo thriller. it’s got Robert Redford, he’s hot. Rocky, oh my god, it’s got the running up the stairs. Why would Seven Beauties have a higher heart rate? And I say this as someone who literally just watched the film for the first time and thought it was extraordinary. I mean, it’s an incredible film, but I wouldn’t never watch it again. Has anyone else seen it? And I chose this specifically because—
MIA Yeah. Tell me about it, Gemma, tell us about it.
GEMMA Okay, well, I guess the best way to describe it would be that it’s a perfect double feature pairing with Guillermo del Toro’s Pinocchio and keeping with the animation theme this week. It’s about fascism. It’s a satire. It’s about a boy adrift in an evil world doing what he can to stay alive. It’s got a crazy opening sequence that—ha, with the song, oh, yeah, just for the list of states of humanity that feel unconscionable. And yeah, it’s essentially a film about a guy, World War Two, fascist Italy, doing literally anything to stay alive. And you can’t read it as a straight film, it is one hundred percent a satire, but it’s a really uncomfortable—it’s not a laugh out loud, bumbling ‘life is beautiful’ kind of World War Two situation at all. Really surprised by that heart rate, but great! Great for the first woman ever nominated for an Academy Award. What about, what was your first watch?
BRIAN Mine was Face to Face, it was the only film on this list that I had not seen before. Seven Beauties I think is amazing—Lina Wertmüller’s script and Shirley Stoller especially. So I chose Face to Face but I was sweating bullets for a while because I couldn’t find it anywhere. I tried all my sources online. I was like, ‘I’m gonna fail at doing my own homework.’
MIA And to be clear, Face to Face is not in the Bergman Criterion Collection.
BRIAN Right. So, I mean, Bergman has made a lot. This was during the phase where he was also making for television as well. So Face to Face, this is for the theatrical version that he was nominated for. There is a TV version as well, but I couldn’t find either. But then I ed—and this is just a reminder to anyone listening—video stores, they do still exist if you’re lucky enough to have one close by to you. VideoTech saved me in Pasadena. And so I watched Face to Face. I can understand why—I mean Bergman has a ton of movies, I can understand why it’s not in the large Criterion Collection. However, it is very, very fascinating to watch. It’s about a psychiatrist who has her own mental breakdown and basically she has to come face to face with the same types of demons within herself that many of her clients have had. It’s very disorienting to figure out what is real, what has happened to her, something traumatic happened to her but did it really? It also has a lot of red and I know how you feel about that, Mia, when Bergman uses red.
MIA Mhm... Cries and Whispers, baby!
BRIAN There’s a specific outfit in this that Liv Ullmann wears, the great, great Liv Ullmann. This might be actually her best performance, which is saying a lot. She goes hard. But there is a red robe that she wears that I swear David Cronenberg is referencing in Dead Ringers.
MIA Okay, you sold me on that. I was already sold because I love when Bergman goes into a mental hospital and explores the intricacies and internal desires of women who are on the brink. I love it when he does that stuff. So I’m very much sold. Thank you, Brian.
BRIAN Gemma and I are now wondering, Mia, what did you think? Is All the President’s Men, did it live up? Is it your jam? Is it at the top?
MIA Yes, yes, it is. It’s that simple. [Gemma laughs] I love this film, I gave out the rare five stars and a heart on first watch.
GEMMA Woo!
MIA I cannot believe I went—yeah! I can’t believe I went all this time without watching it. I think that it is a very, very, very strong contender in this Best Directors lineup. Especially because Pakula shoots it, like he has these takes that last for minutes at a time you don’t even notice that take is going for that long because the performances are so spot on and well-directed. Just the restraint and patience and respect poured into each scene of these reporters clacking away at their little typewriters. I mean, not even to mention the smart sound design choice to amplify each click. I just—I think it would have been so easy to make this film so boring. [Gemma laughs] You know, it’s not like a visually interesting story. Watergate, it’s just not. And Pakula was able to transform this very, very, very complicated story into something that is narratively compelling. And I think that’s neat.
GEMMA He made an office break-in exciting.
BRIAN I’m glad that you highlighted the performances when talking about Best Director because that’s something that I think a lot of people don’t think about, they think only the visuals and pacing and stuff like that. But directing the actors is one of the primary jobs of Best Director and some of the less showy stuff is still—you look at Todd Field is nominated for TÁR, it’s not like a visual feast that we’re thinking of like in of the mise-en-scene, but the direction of that performance and putting everything together. Anyway, I’m just glad that you highlighted that.
GEMMA Yeah, that came through a lot in Seven Beauties as well. I mean, it’s a wild, wild story, but ultimately, it’s the journey of one man, Pasqualino, and it’s very much focused on Giancarlo Giannini’s face as he starts as a bit of a heel, right? He’s a bit of a heel, he’s a bit of a dick, and becomes more of a dick as the war goes on. But you know, it’s sort of dickish-ness and survival, and it’s all about the change in his face as he experiences and puts others through decisions that he makes himself. So you’re right. Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s not just about the camera decisions, it’s about that specific relationship with the person who holds the frame.
BRIAN So does that mean that you chose Pakula, Mia, for your best director winner from the from this slate?
MIA Yes, Pakula is my pick. Absolutely. I loved All the President’s Men. Gemma, what is your pick?
GEMMA Based on the fact that I’ve now seen all these films—don’t make me choose. I can’t choose. They’re all great. I mean, I’m guessing Lumet for Network. I’d like to say Pakula for All the President’s Men. I’m guessing the Academy awarded Lina purely by the nomination alone, and there’s no way they were going to give her the actual statue. Yeah, I’m gonna settle on, I’m going to sit on Lumet.
MIA Is that who you think won or who you would want to win?
GEMMA Who I would want to win and who I think won.
MIA Ohh, it’s a double. Okay. Okay.
GEMMA I love All the President’s Men but Network as a whole piece of work sticks in my head and in the culture, I think.
MIA Yes, yes. The “mad as hell” line. I mean, you can’t beat that. Brian, what is your pick?
BRIAN Mine is Lumet. Gemma, are you staying on Lumet? Are we two against one for bad journalism?
MIA You’re switching sides? I thought you were a Pakula babe with me? That’s okay, that’s okay...
GEMMA I think it’s fine. I think I’m sticking with all of them because I’m suspecting that none of them actually won the Oscar.
BRIAN But the reason why I’m gonna say Lumet is it’s partially what Mia was saying about Pakula, which the directions of the performances here is amazing. Peter Finch, Faye Dunaway, Beatrice Straight with the shortest amount of screen time ever to win an Oscar because she was directed so well. But, I am a slut for visuals and it does have that as well, whereas All the President’s Men does not. I’m speaking I’ve specifically the Ned Beatty scene at the end with a very long table, all the lights and he’s explaining how the world works. And Peter Finch just looks dazed and confused. And that whole section makes a very great satire into one of the best comedies of all time in my opinion.
MIA And Ned Beatty stays winning because he’s in both Network and All the President’s Men.
BRIAN But, who actually won, do you think?
GEMMA It has to be, it has to be John G. Avildsen for Rocky. It has to be, right? Because populism. Am I right? Am I right, Brian?
BRIAN You’re right, because populism. The Oscars, while people don’t—they think that it’s like this stuffy thing, they sometimes have populist years and honestly, it kind of feels like we’re swinging into one this year because you look at the PGA nominations that just came out: [Avatar: The Way of Water], [Black Panther: Wakanda Forever], [Top Gun: Maverick], all those movies were nominated. And in the ’70s, while they’re mostly ed and beloved for maverick filmmaking, they are also the decade where the modern blockbuster emerged from. So Rocky came right after Jaws from 1975. Rocky was right after, and this came out of nowhere to become a massive, massive hit. It was a scrappy, low-budget mega-hit crowd-pleaser. So yeah, I think that the excitement of just like something kind of coming from left field swept up Avildsen, but I do want to shout out not just Bill Conti, who somehow didn’t win Gonna Fly Now, Best Original Song, which is crazy because it’s one of the most memorable movie moments ever using song in the montage with it is one of the often imitated moments in all of cinema. But that running up the steps of the Philadelphia Art Museum was the first use of the steadicam. So Avildsen gets, while his name isn’t out there that much with auteurs, he is the first person to ever use the Steadicam, which was invented in Philly by Garrett Brown.
GEMMA I can feel the pride emanating from our Philly-based editor Slim outside in the van. He’s just finished his big gulp, he’s sitting back there in the glow of this many mentions of Philly. It’s a beautiful thing.
BRIAN Just a little movie history for everyone there, that that’s where it all started. Steadicam is in everything now and it started in Rocky.
GEMMA And it started in Philly.
MIA Okay, Gemma, I am nominating you to choose our year and category next week. Okay? Is that okay? Do you accept the nomination?
GEMMA I accept and I’m ready and I came prepared. I am a BAFTA woman and I have chosen the 1992 BAFTA Best Original Screenplay nominees, mainly because I think there’s a little something in here for everyone here. And the nominees are: The Fisher King by Richard LaGravenese, Green Card by Peter Weir, yes, the Peter Weir, our Master and Commander, Thelma and Louise by Callie Khouri...
MIA Woo!
GEMMA And Truly Madly Deeply by Anthony Minghella. So if you have two hours between now and next week, which of these films are you going to watch for The Heart Rate?
MIA Oh, I mean, I have seen Thelma and Louise about three dozen times, or else I would pick it, like that is the film that I’ve seen maybe one of the most times, because I wrote so many essays on it in college, I was obsessed. So I’m going to challenge myself by not choosing Thelma and Louise and I’m going to go with Truly Madly Deeply because I hear it’s a rom-com with ghosts and Alan Rickman, so that sounds right up my alley, and I am happy to watch it.
GEMMA Perfect.
BRIAN Mia, you might have to make a trip to VideoTech to get that because I actually watched that recently and that’s how I had to watch it. I was in a little sad around the holidays, but that picked me up. So now the only movie on this list that I haven’t seen, Jeff Bridges as a shock-jock DJ and Terry Gilliam’s and Richard LaGravenese’s The Fisher King. It is the only one that I haven’t seen. I’m actually shocked that I haven’t seen this. I’ll watch it.
GEMMA Ah, I’m excited.
MIA Gemma, which are you gonna watch?
GEMMA Oh, I think I might have to uncomfortably go in for a Green Card rewatch because it has been quite a number of years since I saw it. And I say uncomfortably because, you know, we know now that one of the leading performances is problematic.
MIA Wait, who’s in it?
GEMMA But hey, it’s still got Andie MacDowell and her gorgeous hair. Oh, you know, it’s old Gérard Depardieu himself. Alright, alright, okay. From bad guys to good guys, it’s time for Player of the Season, my favorite little After Party game, where we highlight a person or a group of people who in amongst the glitz and glam are actually grounding us during awards season with heartfelt and political actions to make the world and if it’s at all possible, Hollywood, just a little bit better. So do we have any nominations this week?
BRIAN I have one.
GEMMA Woo! Go Brian.
BRIAN It doesn’t come from the red carpet or award shows, it actually comes from my inbox. [Brian laughs]
MIA What?!
GEMMA Whaaat? Brian, give me your . [Brian laughs]
BRIAN I’m gonna get HR in here.
GEMMA I just want the dopamine hits—okay, okay, okay. Lay it on us.
BRIAN I mean, actually, I mean, I might let you answer some emails for me because I am behind.
GEMMA Oh, no, thank you. [Mia laughs] Speaking of behind, we gotta wrap this show up. Okay, who’s in your inbox?
BRIAN I did get something from Dean Fleischer Camp and we’re gonna play it for you...
DEAN FLEISCHER CAMP Hi, Letterboxd community, I just wanted to say thank you so much on behalf of myself and the entire Marcel the Shell filmmaking team. Thank you for watching our movie and for recommending it and for writing mostly positive reviews. Yours is this the opinion that matter. There was one review actually that I got taken down as being in violation of the community guidelines because it said, “Hi, I’m not reviewing this movie because I haven’t seen this movie yet. But I did see the director get out of a cab at South by Southwest and he looked lazy and fat.” So part of this award belongs to the moderation team letterboxd.jeux1001.com and I would like to thank them from the bottom of my heart. I was chunkier then, but I was also on Lexapro, and I—I’ve never been lazy though.
MIA Marcel...
BRIAN Yeah, so the reason I’m highlighting Dean is because he thanked our moderation team, our wonderful moderation team which is thoughtful and beautiful and it is a part of Letterboxd that mostly deals with complaints or harassment. So anytime a thankless job gets actual thanks for the work we do, praise be. It shows awareness.
MIA Yup, it’s just like former Cassavetes production assistant, Steven Spielberg, said—yes, that is how I’m going to refer to him from now on by the way—it’s just like he said at the Globes, “be nice to your PAs, every level of this industry, of any industry really, deserves respect and decency.”
[theme song ramps up, plays alone, fades out]
MIA Thank you so much for listening to Best in Show—a limited awards season series brought to you by The Letterboxd Show. We would love for you to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts because it gives us dopamine but more importantly, it spreads the word.
BRIAN You can follow all of us and our HQ page on Letterboxd using the links in our episode notes. Thanks to our crew: Jack for the facts, Slim for making us sound amazing, Sophie Shin for the episode transcript. Thanks to Letterboxd member Trent Walton for the music.
GEMMA And, speaking of being nice to PAs and thanking every department, I just like to remark as someone who has spent a lot of my career being a producer, that the river of thanks generally flows downstream. And producers don’t often get a lot of thanks, so thank you, Brian, for producing us and to you, the listeners for listening. Best in Show is a Tapedeck production. [Brian & Gemma & Mia sigh] Yay!
[Tapedeck bumper plays] This is a Tapedeck podcast.